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Larry Lem

USA
40 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  09:15:35  Show Profile
Many existing record categories are vacant. For example, a few "empty" categories include:

200m flying start multirider arms only
4000m standing start womens or multirider
24 hr standing start womens, multirider, arms only

The rules do not set minimum standards. One could set a "silly" record by simply applying for, follow the rules and ride for a half hour on a velodrome on an unfaired tandem and set a 24 hour standing start multirider record. Should we honor such efforts or should we establish some minimum standards? What should we use as the basis of such standards?

Larry Lem

Don S

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  20:19:48  Show Profile
Larry,

That's an interesting point to bring up. I think the spirit of the rules includes a basic consideration that the organization is dedicated to setting records in these categories and there might not be a universal answer.

Someone buying a commercially availabe bike or building a bike or other faired vehicle, setting up an official attempt with the expense of providing official timing equipment, bringing in observers, ratifying the course, etc. would, after riding for 24 hours, be entitled to consideration for the record even if they only averaged 5 mph for the 24 hour event.

I'd like to see someone team with Greg Westlake on a multi-rider arms only machine but even if it was 2 new individuals wanting to claim one of the records with a "silly" performance it would set a benchmark to be broken and should be honored if all the rules were complied with. Such mediocre performances would then set the minimum standard as a challenge to the hpv community. I think the spirit of the rules would allow that someone who rode for 1 hour and then parked the bike for 23 hours had not competed in a 24 hour event but if the official observers and timers and riders were on the course for the full 24 hours it would appear to be a bonafide 24 hour attempt regardless of the total distance ridden. Similar arguments can be made for the speed events.

I'm a strong proponent of getting records published in all categories and keeping the web site records page up to date.

It's more unfortunate for records to have been set and for the results not be recognized officially and published on the web site, which seems to be a current problem. I'd have to be opposed to any rule allowing the rules committee to make a determination to reject a record because they thought the machine was inferior or that the participant(s) could have done better.

Are you thinking of converting your tandem to arm power? <G>

Don

"it's important to understand what makes them fast. It's more important to understand what keeps them from going faster." DS
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Larry Lem

USA
40 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2011 :  18:58:52  Show Profile
Raymond Gage noted that a performance at the Ford event should be counted even though they crashed before the hour was up, noting that the distance covered was still significant.

I was asking as someone else in IHPVA officialdom asked my opinion.
I stated that any distance had to be counted as there are no rules that say otherwise. We have to hold to the rules. If we want to change the rules, fine.

My real opinion is that categories for different types of riders shouldn't exist, so someone attempting a multirider 24 hour record has to honor the current 24 hour record (still held by Greg K?) rather than "the organization" (us) having to think about minimum standards.

Larry Lem
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Don S

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2011 :  19:15:09  Show Profile
Consider that one of the purposes of the IHPVA is to support significant human power achievements.
quote:
3.2.2.14 Special Records Events: Members are encouraged to submit applications for new record categories to the IHPVA. Significant achievements will be recognized as new record classes.

There can be different interpretations of what a significant achievement is but using primarily our current knowledge of the limits of human physiology, aerodymamics and drag forces one can argue the justification of nearly every recorded category and a few that haven't been recognized.

There is a significant difference between the drag forces acting on a trike and those limiting the performance of a two wheeled streamliner. There is a significant difference between the total of cross sectional and surface area to enclose one rider compared to that required to enclose 2 or more. There is a significant difference in potential power output between a mature male and a teen aged girl. etc.

It's relevant to Gage's inquiry that to date the IHPVA hasn't recognized the trike class (or sub-class) and no official records are maintained or listed for trikes. The only special IHPVA recognition I've found for trikes is that at Battle Mountain in 2008 Chuck Royalty received event recognition for setting a trike subclass record speed of 66.08 mph in Gage's Orion. Subsequent trike subclass records at Battle Mountain have been denied any special recognition even on the event level. ie. Kara Snyder's Junior Women trike subclass record performance in 2010. Kara did receive recognition for her overall performance but not for the trike sub-class achievement. Subsequent requests to challenge the trike sub-class records have been denied on the basis that the class doesn't exist.

Unless we change the rules, or the IHPVA records committee recognizes trike performances as special accomplishments, the performance of the Orion at Ford for an official IHPVA 1 hour record seems moot.

Don
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upright mike

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2012 :  07:22:47  Show Profile
Below is a look at the performance of the ORION trike at Ford. The Orion was shipped to my house just before the Ford event, and I saw first-hand damage to it that occurred because a fork-lift operator drove forks through the shipping crate. Unfortunately this caused a wing to later break off during their run and cause the crash before their hour was up.

Chuck may have set a 10-mile (2 lap) and 25-mile (5 lap) records before the crash occurred (see this thread.... ) but there distance completed (only 34 miles) was not enough to overtake some velomobiles and the Vector Single trike which did complete an Hour in other events. See this thread... Proposal of trike records. http://www.ihpva.org/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=709

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