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KJELL

Spain
2 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2011 :  01:47:35  Show Profile
The Festo SmartBird is one good example to adapt to a full scale human powered Ornithopter.
Kjell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA7PNQiHT1Q&feature=feedlik

Edited by - KJELL on 06/17/2011 21:56:24
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Victor Ragusila

Canada
10 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2011 :  09:27:45  Show Profile
The Smart Bird is a very nice looking machine, but it is nothing revolutionary. At UTIAS, the professor that supervised the SnowBird built the first RC controlled ornithopter in 1991, and it had very similar performance. Still, it took 25 years to get to a human flight.

What most people fair to realize is just how heavy a person is for the amount of power they produce. An RC model is easy to fly, I have one for 50$ that works pretty well. Motors and batteries allow for a very simple, low efficiency structure. When humans are involved, the efficiency needed is much higher.

Victor
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KJELL

Spain
2 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2011 :  00:33:01  Show Profile
To build a wing for gliding, gives no problem. The dificulty start how to build the wing that can produce good thrust, with minimum muscular work.

Kjell
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Talos

United Kingdom
32 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2012 :  05:50:48  Show Profile  Visit Talos's Homepage
I see that the last post on this topic was made on 06/30/2011. This being the case I would like to kick-start it back into life.

Therefore I'm posting the description below to see if there's anyone watching.

Description: Bird flight.
The wings of a bird have a special shape which is slightly higher at the front than at the back, i.e., they act in the same way as an airplane’s wings. As the wings move forward they cause air to be pulled down in a ’downwash’. As the wing’s speed increases, more and more air is pulled down.

Birds fly level when the weight of the air that is pulled down constantly equals their weight. If they pull down more air than their weight they rise up into the air, just the same as an airplane.

At sea level, an average cubic metre of air weighs about 1.225 kg (a cubic foot of air weighs 1.29 ounces). This means a bird weighing 1.29 ounces will require at least a cubic foot of air to constantly descend in the downwash.

Unfortunately, we can’t see the air, so we have to visualize this as if the bird is on one side of a balance scale and the weight of the air in the downwash is on the other side. To balance (level flight) the downwash weight of air on the other side of the scale must equal the weight of the bird. When the weight of air in the downwash is heavier than the bird it will tip the scale causing the bird’s side of the scale to go up.

In other words, a bird goes up when enough air is pulled down. Engineers and scientists refer to this as an equal and opposite reaction in accordance with Newton’s 3rd law of motion.

This is exactly the same kind of physics that cause a helium balloon to go up (air descends and the balloon rises).
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Don S

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2012 :  06:47:09  Show Profile
quote:
the bird is on one side of a balance scale and the weight of the air in the downwash is on the other side.
That's an interesting perspective and description of the forces involved in flight. Placing the balloon on the scale really demonstrates that there are other forms of lift other than those related to aerodynamic drag that could be harnessed for human powered flight. The White Dwarf comes to mind as an example of rules tampering with innovation.
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cyot75

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2013 :  16:16:52  Show Profile
One would think that these HPO forums exist for the sake of progress in actually building the HPO. I could be wrong but it seems to me that people are more interested in the process of talk and when some real possibilities are brought to the table the subject is diverted into a bunch of complex talk.
Maybe in these few forums, I haven't talked to the rite guy. I have been sitting on and perfecting, in theory and on the drawing board, the design I believe is the key to the finish line for about 8 or 9 years now. I'm not part of the "flying" community and have no connections to bring this to fruition faster.
I've decided that I have to start making these pieces myself one at a time from check to check but it is very very complex, with no room for error, and it is scary and uncharted territory for me. I guess I always thought I could find moral support at the very least.
Every item in this world was born out of an idea or concept in the mind. It has been my experience so far that this world is telling us that it doesn't want this last jewel in it, by way of sarcasm, doubt, and silence, machinists, aluminum welders, a variety of parts and material specialists, artists, pilots, investors, and others had nothing to say about it but snickering and jokes. They looked at me like I was crazy!
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cyot75

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2013 :  16:34:04  Show Profile
Usually when an artist or craftsman or anyone who makes something out of their own creativity, they will prefer their own creation over another s that may be obviously better in every way just for the simple reason that they labored over it and are emotionally and mentally attached to their own. This is not why I am so passionate about my design. I am passionate about it not ONLY cause I created it but because it already exists and the resources are under our noses just begging to be manifested.
In pure logic, there is only one perfect and efficient design above all other less efficient designs. I believe I am holding it. I often rake the levels of internet for anything relating to this and I am always staggered that nobody is doing it!!!! LOL!! I feel a twinge of jealousy when I almost think I found something.
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cyot75

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2013 :  16:50:41  Show Profile
I do not indulge in fantasy when I ponder the side effects of having manifested this HPO. In the legal arena it will be ugly ugly ugly! There will be deaths and injuries, it will be the worlds next biggest funnest sport and pass time, everyone will want one, FFA will try to impose more restrictions (seems when people are in a position of authority they get an overwhelming hunger to stomp out the fun).
So much can be said about patenting, manufacturing,etc...Whoever owns the rights may mass produce it but I think once it is known, some individuals will simply build their own from scratch.
Once the basic design is perfected and standardized, an owners understanding will show him or her how to modify or customize it to their body style or mode of flight desired.
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Talos

United Kingdom
32 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2013 :  07:58:41  Show Profile  Visit Talos's Homepage
Cyot75, allow me to comment on some of the points you raised.

One would think that these HPO forums exist for the sake of progress in actually building the HPO. I could be wrong but it seems to me that people are more interested in the process of talk and when some real possibilities are brought to the table “…. the subject is diverted into a bunch of complex talk”.
I couldn’t agree more. This is why I run a Course—Elements of Ornithopter Design—precisely to educate dreamers in understanding intuitively, and logically, the realities of the physics, calculations, energy, mechanics, aerodynamics, and other related considerations.

“… Maybe in these few forums, I haven't talked to the rite guy”. There’s a lot of nonsense talked, (in lots of forums) wrapped up in technobabble, simply because it is perceived, as a complicated subject. It is my experience that lots of people don’t know what they are talking about, and resort to preconceived ideas based on misunderstandings about flight (I recommend the book: UNDERSTANDING FLIGHT by David F. Anderson and Scott Eberhardt).

“… I guess I always thought I could find moral support at the very least. Well Douglas, you have my moral support, for one.

“… They looked at me like I was crazy! Take heart Cyot. In 1997, Apple ran an advertising campaign with this declaration—“Here’s to the crazy ones…...because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world are the ones who do”. And here’s another quote: “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has". Margaret Mead—American anthropologist.

“I am passionate about it...because it already exists and the resources are under our noses just begging to be manifested”. Once again, I couldn’t agree more.

“… everyone will want one” Agreed.

“… Once the basic design is perfected and standardized, an owners understanding will show him or her how to modify or customize it to their body style or mode of flight desired”. Agreed again, but more so. My aim is for individuals to design/build their own personal ornithopters, with the aid of my Course, and from readily available materials.
Talos

Edited by - Talos on 01/11/2013 15:14:30
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cyot75

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2013 :  19:31:42  Show Profile
Talos, that was some superior feedback, thanks for hearing me. If I may ask your opinion, If you, personally were certain that you had a workable design but limited on resources to build it quickly, and it would take a couple years to have a working model, would you keep it to yourself so someone else doesn't profit on all your work or would you give it away for anyone to manufacture? (seems that with a working model investors would take you more seriously)
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Talos

United Kingdom
32 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2013 :  10:33:17  Show Profile  Visit Talos's Homepage
Cyot75,
Good question. I would first build a scale model, in both dimension and weight, purely as a glider. When you have the model you can test it to see if it glides with an acceptable glide slope (Lift/Drag ratio). From this you can determine the scaled power required to sustain level flight (my Course explains how this can be done). If then, the power is scaled up and is within your own output; then by all means go ahead and build it full size. Get your family/relations/trustworthy friends to see the ‘glider’ in flight and explain how you have determined that your own muscular power is sufficient to fly it. If you can convince them they’ll help you with the costs and its construction (perhaps with a legally bound contract, regarding ownership and rights).
If that fails, you’ll just have to be patient until you can afford the cost alone. During this time you will have ample opportunity to reflect on your design and identify possible errors that you are currently unaware of. Be patient, the world has waited thousands of years for a human powered ornithopter so a little longer won’t hurt.
Talos
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cyot75

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2013 :  16:24:45  Show Profile
One last invention before an old tired world can say it did everything.
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Talos

United Kingdom
32 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2013 :  07:04:21  Show Profile  Visit Talos's Homepage
Hi everyone, take a look at these.
http://www.i-programmer.info/news/169-robotics/5700-festos-dragonfly-.html
http://www.festo.com/cms/en_corp/11369_11439.htm#id_11439
http://www.talosperdix.com
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