IHPVA Forums
IHPVA Forums
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
 All Forums
 Human Power Topics
 Land
 4Wheel Kickbikes from Finland.
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

weakling

Sweden
10 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2011 :  14:29:52  Show Profile
I guess them are mostly used buy Elders as a Rolling Rollator substitute on icy streets during the winter and in summer they are sued by folks who what to exercise their Sled Dogs?

I use it because I like the stability due to me a Weakling. I would fall using a regular Kickbike or Footbike or a two wheel Scooter.

Yes I ahve tested to be on two wheels but I do prefer 4W on icy streets we ahve a rather long winter here in Stockholm.

All above is more like an intro. I like to find other people whom like me have knee problem and that makes us want to sit and kick bike instead of to stand and kickbike or footbike or to stand scooting.

So I badly need all of you to help me find these kickbikers that have knee problem and that are desperate to find a working solution to our need to sit and kick ourselves to independence.

Rollator does not work for us because when one walk the knee says. Stop walking I need to rest now and that takes some 20 minutes of massage to get it going. But using a pedal bike it hurts almost nothing so that would be a solution but pedaled bikes and ordinary big Kickbikes are not allowed into a shop either so we need something that one sit on and that one kick and that can be a replacement for a Rollator, to fill the same/similar role as a Rollator/Walker and a small four or three wheeled kickbike with seat and foot rests would accomplish such needs.

They do exists for children but are not easy to scale up due to children weighting almost nothing and as a heavy grown up old guy I weight 100KG.

So how do I find these guys that have built something on their own and can share their experiences of how their innovations behave?

I name these small things RollatorKickbikes for wont of a better name.

The term Kickbike are that a (TM) trademark? What should I name such a thing I write about?

Draisin? :) BoneShaker?

weakling

Sweden
10 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2011 :  14:25:36  Show Profile
Since I posted the above I have tried my best to make a drawing. But unfortunately I am extremely poor at making such. I have a severe ADHD that makes me fail at concentration.

But I give you a link so you get a clue on what I talk about.

It is a Rollator when one are in a shop and need to buy food or something. Then when one are outside and want to head home then one collapse the whole thing into a double kickbike/scooter thing.

I have several such and this is made so it can serve two purposes. To stand and kicke and to sit on the seat and kick. Two different seats with different height. The one for to rest on the Rollator are 600 mm in height and standard size. The one for sitting and kicking is adjustable height that suites the rider. but you can also stand and kick and ignore the seat. Flexibility is what I want.

So if you look at the pic at the link. I can change from Rollator to Double Kickbike with seat within a few seconds. It has Quick release at the Q on the picture.

Obviously this is a posterior and not an anterior Rollator. The user stand in front and not behind the Rollator. Pull instead of push.

The good thing is that one get a better posture and one can enter an obstacle better compared to if you push into a same obstacle like a sidewalk that has no entry for Rollators :)

Okay what to name the beast? Draisine or BoneShaker ?

All suggestions are welcome. I plan to start my own forum for these kind of odd creatures to not take up the space in the competition and more sport related Kickbike forums. The Kickbikes I use are more like Mobility Aid Rollator Kickbikes.

HPV-DIY-Mobility-Aid-Forum is that a good name for such?

Guys I need your help now so why not let your imagination run wild and come up with suggestions how to improve the sloppy design.

I trust all of you are better at it than what I am.

link to the bad drawing (apology for extreme bad quality and confusing text.
http://rosnix.net/hpvs-forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=313&

Sadly the link fail so go here and click on the jpg link in the post in swedish on teh HPVS forum
http://rosnix.net/hpvs-forum/index.php?t=msg&th=5880&goto=27280#msg_27280

Edited by - weakling on 03/10/2011 14:31:25
Go to Top of Page

weakling

Sweden
10 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2011 :  06:56:00  Show Profile
The problem with Rollators are that they are regulated as Mobility Aid and therefor Type Certified or what the official way to refer to that Certification are. Take where I live. European Union and one of it's member state. Each such Rollator has a mark on it that it is CE marked as approved of as a Mobility Aid. Which even makes it "Free" or "Gratis" to use for us with problem with balance or something that the Health authorities has recommended usage for.

So rules are rules. I am not allowed to change the Rollator and used it as such when changed or modified or hacked or even "pimped" too much. Then it is not seen as a "Mobility Aid" anymore but as a kind of entertainment amusment freak show thing and they would tell me to get out of the Mall or Rail Road Station Hall, Bus Station or whatever.

So I have rethought the whole thing. I keep the Rollator as it is. I will use it as the Mobility Aid it is. To help me keep my balance.

So how do I take care of my hurting knee then. I need something under it that roll!

Inlines, RollerBlades, naah these are very dangerous for us with bad balance. So what could I make use of.

The newest??? trend among kids and youngsters. They use "LED Flashing Roller Skates" that are not the usual "Roller Skate" you picture but something that is less sophisticated.

You have one small wheel to the left of your ankle and and one to the right and the platform to stand on are only for the heel and not for the whole shoe. So the toe part of the shoe are on ground unless you lean a bit back on the heel and let the the "Roller Skate" take over and you fall if your not careful.

Now how do I combine this with the non-modified Rollator. Well the role for the Rollator are to protect me from falling so it is designed for that role already. But to be even more safe I modify the "Roller Skate" instead of modifying the Rollator which had ruined it's certification so I take off the right wheel on the left "Roller Skate" and the left wheel on the right "Roller Skate" and I instead build a hang on strap something that hinge on the Rollator but are not a permanent change or modification of it.

Look at the link and there you have two liks again after the wordy swedish text. Click on the one saying RollerSkate-Attached-to-Rollator.jpg

and look at my extremely bad pencil drawing.

Non-modified the width of the Rollator are some 500 mm to 600 mm and folded the Rollator are some 250 mm width but when I hang on or strap? on or hinge on the modified "Roller Skate" on each side then the width of the Rollator will be back at 600 mm width to be a safe to hold on to "Mobility Aid" for my now escalated balance problem standing with one feet in each RollerSkate attached to a non-modified Rollator but which temporarily has a hang on to it that get removed as soon as I see a "Regulating Officer" putting their prying eyes on me. :)

Okay. that looks promising indeed. This sure will help me with my hurting knee. I will be able to roll and kick myself to the Mall for shopping food and so on. To get out and not be at home.

Now I only need to find out how to steer the rolling Rollator with the RollerSkate attached to it.

I stand with left foot on the left RollerSkate-Attached-to-Rollator and kick with right foot between the two rear wheels and then rest the right foot and start kicking with left instead and take turns and so on.

My hands are on the handles of the Rollator as when one use it for walking.

I feel hope though. I only have to find someone that share my motivation to build these things and test how safe to use they are.
http://rosnix.net/hpvs-forum/index.php?t=msg&th=5880&goto=27294#msg_27294

Edited by - weakling on 03/12/2011 07:03:51
Go to Top of Page

weakling

Sweden
10 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2011 :  12:23:58  Show Profile
Building something that help us with knee problem but that still are a true HPV is the challenge that I have taken upon me.

I repeat the background in this take II of this journey.

quote:
The problem with Rollators are that they are regulated as Mobility Aid and therefor Type Certified or what the official way to refer to that Certification are. Take where I live. European Union and one of it's member state. Each such Rollator has a mark on it that it is CE marked as approved of as a Mobility Aid. Which even makes it "Free" or "Gratis" to use for us with problem with balance or something that the Health authorities has recommended usage for.

So rules are rules. I am not allowed to change the Rollator and used it as such when changed or modified or hacked or even "pimped" too much. Then it is not seen as a "Mobility Aid" anymore but as a kind of entertainment amusment freak show thing and they would tell me to get out of the Mall or Rail Road Station Hall, Bus Station or whatever.

So I have rethought the whole thing. I keep the Rollator as it is. I will use it as the Mobility Aid it is. To help me keep my balance.


So how do I make use of the untouched Rollator and make a HPV based on a cross over between a Rollator and a Kickbike Footbike that have the needed feature that it allow you to rest legs while still rolling and steering safely down the Pavement?

well my take I was not a good solution at all. So here is suggestion II.

I've seen those Industry things they use inside Ware Houses? But I fail to find a good example now. So I try to describe what I talk about.

Think like this:

1. I need something that I can use as the steering handles that a Rollator have. And it should be very stable and reliable. I also need to sit and rest.

2. I need a way to sit and kick and stand and kick.

3. so I suddenly got the very genius idea that already existed since the days of the Roman wars some two thousands years ago. A two wheel war wagon thing that is easily steered.

Well the Romans used horses as motor and that provided also a way to steer these easily steered two wheel war vehicles.

So I simply hang on a two wheel thing on the Rollator whe I am out of sight of the upholders of rules in public places.

I realize that this is how big trucks and other such transportation are done. The cargo is very big and long and have many wheels to allow for the heavy weight of the cargo they have to load. That is my big heavy body.

Think of me sitting on the kickbike part and the Rollator as the steering first wheel that can swivel 360 under the caster wheel that I attach at the proper point on the Rollator.

So the Rollator remain absolutely untouched by me inside the regulated area of a Shop or Communal Transportation Company like RailRoad or Bus or whatever Subway Underground Ferry and so on.

But when I am out of sight of the regulators of the rules then I attach the hang on kickbike that I have had hidden in a sac and

then the Rollator become the front wheel of the kickbike.


Yes it is ridiculous big front wheel. but having four wheels 8" to 10" big and them spread wide this HPV combination will be very safe on the icy streets of Stockholm this spring and coming winter.

I feel very optimistic that I have finally came upon a design idea that could really work for us with bad hurting knee.

It will have many good features and a few bad ones.

1. It will be very safe seen from balance and knee problem point of view.

2. it will satisfy the rule regulators that I have done no change to the Rollator that makes them show me the cold treatment of being an intruder with a faked Mobility Aid. I use the real Rollator untouched.

3. It allow me to stand and kick on left side and on the right side it allow me to sit and kick or to sit and "run" like the kids in the Strider and Balance Bike videos on Youtube. It allow me to sit comfortably on the regular standard Rollator seat.

4 but the very bad thing is that it is very long and very heavy to carry around concealed in its big sac to hide it from eyes of the prying regulators that just love to clamp down on the trespassing cheater that abuse the Rollator as a Kickbike transformer thingy.

5. Have I your approval? Should I try to build this latest attempt and does it have a chance to be a success as a home build add on to the regular mobility aid?

Technical details of the concept "Transformer". The Steering part are any standard Rollator/walker that here acts as the steering wheel. The kick part are hinged or hang on the Rollator with a swivel that allow 180 degrees turning. 90 degree left and 90 degree right. I did not chose 360 that is not really needed. So first you have a Rollator that is some 27" to 30" plus long and then attached on that one is the kickbike part that needs some 12" for the shoe feet platforms and then comes the rear wheels that needs to be some 8" to 12" to be comfortable over rough payment obstacles. So that is very big.

But taken apart and hidden in its sac it should be carried on the Rollator as a personal bag that they have no need to look into. :)


Eager to read you kind comments.


I've spent some three years trying to figure this out and it was way more difficult than I anticipated. And maybe I failed now too. Did I?

Edited by - weakling on 03/13/2011 12:41:45
Go to Top of Page

weakling

Sweden
10 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2011 :  20:33:30  Show Profile
People have told me my descriptions are not satisfying so I give links to pictures that maybe show the principle better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_trailer
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Wooden_Bicycle_Trailer.jpg

and many other similar. But it is like this too.
Parents use a kind of extra bike that hitch or hinge on their bike and the child does not steer but rely totally on the parent to do the steering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailer_bike
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Half_Wheeler_-_bike.JPG/300px-Half_Wheeler_-_bike.JPG

But my need is to use the Rollator as the thing that steer so I hitch the Kickbike part on to the Rollator as if it is the parent and I am the child sitting on the trailer but being the parent at same time steering with the Rollator.

Another way to express it is to say that the whole Rollator are the front wheel of the Kickbike that I stand on and take turns kicking or that I sit on and kick as if it was a Balance bike or Runner Bike.

So the rollator fill the role of the Parent and the hitch or hinged on Kickbike are the child accepting what the parent or the Rollator steer it.

Is that less confusing ?

Edit. I am very naive as an "innovator" I have no practice at this so I am very non-practical.

have you guys noticed that it will be too far between where I stand and kick and the handles of the Rollator. I am too far behind due to the way a Rollator are constructed.

Not easy to solve that practical obstacle? Any suggestion?

Edited by - weakling on 03/13/2011 20:36:29
Go to Top of Page

weakling

Sweden
10 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2011 :  14:38:57  Show Profile
I need to find a HPV or Mobility Aid forum where they have as naive and wild ideas as I have given ample evidence for here. :)

This now is going nowhere. I need kind feedback and not total silence.
Go to Top of Page

weakling

Sweden
10 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2011 :  06:31:06  Show Profile
This guy maybe come closer to what I really want.

He address the knee problem directly making a knee rollator that can also be used sitting on the thing and kicking or pushing with the better leg.

http://www.zefyrmobility.com/

What it lack is the ability to stand and kick and it lack the ability of the front wheel(s) to swivel like a caster wheel would.

But he has solved how to "coast" without having to have one foot on ground all the time. So he is close to what I originally set out to accomplish some three years ago and

I utterly fails to make a prototype due to my fear of practical failure.

My latest attempt with the hang on or hinge on or hitch on trailer idea is very good but it has severe drawbacks.

Double weight and doeuble size almost and the worst is that the handles are way too far from the driver so one have to make coupling to a new set of handles that reach the real handles by extension levers something. I lack English words sorry.

So maybe I ask for too much. What Zefyr through Mike Anderson suggests is a good compromise but is it CE certified.

Here in Europe everything needs the CE certifcation label to be legal to use. I have to correct that one. One maybe are allowed to use it but not as a Mobility Aid certified equipment so one are totally at mercy of the Gate Keeper at the Mall or Store or Institution like a Library or Museum if they care about CE sign on it or not.

Some do some don't.

the very cool thing about zefyr is that you can sit and push your self and thus spare your knee from further injury.
Go to Top of Page

weakling

Sweden
10 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2011 :  07:49:10  Show Profile
I envy all the guys that are better than me using their imagination to come up with solutions to knee problems and mobility. Just three minutes ago I found this site.

http://turningkneewalker.com/The_Next_Generation_of_Knee_Walker.html

That one look even more practical than Zefyr?

Both have the major drawback that our authoritives here in Sweden would say that is a Bike and not a Rollator so Bikes are not allowed here unless you ahve a big Electic motor and a real cusioned seat chair and not that flimsy thing looking like a bike saddle seat. :)

The formal name of the one I link to above seems to be

Voyager Seated Scooter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ImNnxOaU8

It is made by a guy that worked for this company.

RammTLC http://www.rammtlc.com/ they are specialists on KneeScooters and him split from that company and started his own for Voyager.

rammtlc now have a Kit as add on to their two major Knee Scooters.

RammTLC have a big netword of distribution worked up already. So maybe not so easy to get known if one are new to the market.

None here in Sweden had heard about neither of these three companies when I asked around. Each country have their own traditions and styles.

Kind of ironic that I ahve spent three years looking for Seated Scooters and had no idea that is what they are named. I searched using other words like Kickbikes and Rollators and such words and failed to find these three that it took me only some two days to find three different companies that like me should buy their version.

So should it be three wheels or four wheels? Which give a better stability and practicality using them for my purpose?

And none of these three are a Rollator. They will scream at me here that a Bike is not allowed. Get your Rollator if you want to come back rolling on our floor at the Mall :)

Edited by - weakling on 03/17/2011 12:58:22
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
IHPVA Forums © 2008 International Human Powered Vehicle Association Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000